From: Kieran Howarth <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Monday, October 26, 2020 4:49 PM
To: Trey McClure
Cc: Roberts, John A.; Dean Harding; KIM JERANTOWSKI
Subject: Re: Midwest Referee - Summer Invoice
Treyz, my name is Kieran mate.
I grew up playing on cows fields back home so I've played on my fair share of poor fields, but that field had craters everywhere. Whether you feel a Wizard team would have played is irrelevant (pull your tongue out of their arse here) as the safety of my players starts and ends with me as the coach. If you remember, we switched to a non-moon like field and played the full game.
I don't have an issue with young referees. My issue is the fact referees have all of the power when most, like yourself, played at a high school level 30 years ago and then try to tell professional coaches about the game. But the coaches are the ones who are misunderstanding? And if you don't think giving a 13 yr old $25-$40 per hour isn't premium money then we must have had very different upbringings.
This has been enjoyable.....
On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 3:45 PM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
I responded politely to each of your emails. I gave you a factual piece of information and have since expanded upon that to let you know that the matches were not contrived on my part. They came straight from the league schedule, not just the final referee assigning site. Your responses were immature and I'm fairly certain have been noted by those on this thread. Clearly as you have pointed out, the anger was from your end and quite frankly, uncalled for. I initially gave you the option to discuss the amount due, but you chose to respond with hateful rhetoric. At that point I decided it was best just to have you pay the invoice. You brought this on yourself.
As for the match in the summer of 2019 I was there to do my job as a center referee. The pitch in my opinion was playable. We did our best as a three person referee crew to get the pitch dry to your standards so that the match could be played. The single puddle of water that was on the pitch was nowhere near the goal mouth and was not going to cause any more harm than the puddles your teams have played through in the past. The pitch was going to be the same issue for both teams. I know a Wizard FC team would have sucked it up and played after driving an hour, but I realize that your team was playing the top ranked team in the midwest so you had other reasons for not wanting to play the match. Alas, you got what you wanted and didn't play on the pitch.
If you have problems with the referees, then you should discuss those problems with the ISRC. I utilize referees from the ISRC list which by the way now need to be at least 13 years old to be certified as of January 1, 2020. Just want to make sure we're being factual since you seem to think there were 12 year olds reffing. Those 13 year olds that are new referees are only put on the youngest, lowest level matches. I generally only get positive feedback regarding the referees and the system I use to assign them. I have a good ranking system in place that only allows experienced referees to work higher level matches. When there is an issue that arises with a referee I always look into it and oftentimes it is a misunderstanding on the coach's part. Amazing how that works. I must add that you have quite high standards for youth soccer referees. Most referees are trying to do the best job that they can and in many cases they are learning just like the players on the field. You're definitely not paying a premium for the referees. The better referees are always going to move up to older and higher level matches where there is more money because they don't want to put up with the garbage that your coach displayed for the low pay that they get.
If I talked about your coaches and players the way you have talked about the young referees, where do you think that would get me?
My Zelle is connected to my cell phone, as pointed out in the other thread. My email address is also connected. MidwestReferee@gmail.com
Feel free to use either.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 2:45 PM Kieran Howarth <email@example.com> wrote:
Apology? Respect? You taking the piss? I respect people who deserve it. You lost my respect at the Super Y game in the summer of 2019 when you had no regard for my players safety for an abysmal field condition in Frankfort, but because you drove a hour you were hell bent on the game occuring regardless. I don't let anyone's opinion of someone dictate what my opinion is. I form those for myself but it's amusing you've just named 2x additional people who won't be sending you a Christmas card.
I replied respectfully to your initial invoice and the subsequent couple emails. My anger arose after your short response of 'These all came directly from the final referee assigning site.' It was your attitude to my legitimate questions that began this negative spiral.
I appreciate you digging out that screenshot but still doesn't change the fact that the game did not happen, so if something doesn't happen or when refs show up late, why do they still expect to be paid in full? Baffles me. I wouldn't mind if we actually got an individual who's actually played the game before but getting the repetitive 'high school star' from 1974 with 14 games under their belt or the 13 yr old who hasn't hit puberty yet, doesn't really seem we're ever getting quality for a premium amount of money.
As much as I'd love to banter back and forth all day, please let me know if you use your email or cell for a Zelle transaction. We're not in the office right now for obvious reasons so it's that or mailing a check.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 2:04 PM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
The match was on the schedule from July 6 through July 19 when it was scheduled to be played. See image/screenshot below. The problem exists on your end. You did not review the schedule for all Evolution matches. If you need to go back to figure out who should pay for the match, that would be between you and the league and possibly the other club if they are the ones that added it to the schedule. I assigned the matches that were on the schedule that was provided to me from the league.
Any reputation issues I have only come from your assignors based on false accusations. The two exceptions to that are a club that tried to shortchange all of the ARs and got caught and now the issue that I have with paying the referees 2 months late because of your negligence. I'm fair to everyone and I don't neglect the referees that work for me.
The pettiness in this email has come from you. If you review the chain of emails you will see that. I don't expect an apology, because I know how you feel about referees. If you don't want me assigning your MWC matches that's perfectly fine with me. I prefer to work with clubs that respect referees and people in general.
Let me know when you want me to come pick that check up. I would prefer to pick it up today rather than you mailing it. That leaves no room for excuses. If you'd like to drop it off at my house, that's fine too.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 12:05 PM Kieran Howarth <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
The game never existed, so how would we notify the 'league'? Makes NO sense yet we're expected to pay blindly anyway.......ok.
I guess we have no choice but to pay for your fantastic service and amazing 12 yr old ARs. Enjoy this because it's the last you'll ever receive from Evolution. Positively, you've lived up to your poor reputation so keep up the good work. We were in the market for a new MWC assignor as Jablow isn't doing those any more so appreciate you making that shortlist shorter.
John, Dean & Kim, I apologize you had to witness all of these tedious communications and thanks again for all of your hard work putting this together this summer.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 11:30 AM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
You clearly have not read my reply. Go back and read it again. It's the one that I left the attachment off of. I only sent the attachment separately due to an oversight attaching it. Read that email.
I did not collect double assigning fees. You just don't seem to understand how assignors get paid from the league. Your assignor is charging you the $10-12 that he charges you simply for assigning the ARs. How do you think that center gets assigned? Who pays for that? It comes out of your league fees. How much does your assignor charge you to assign a tournament match?
My logic makes 100% sense. If you have a match scheduled with IWSL, YSSL, NISL or any other league and you change the match date/time without notifying the league the league still sends referees and the referees get paid due to your negligence. No difference here. You did not verify the schedule properly on the league schedule. That's between you and the league.
If the invoice doesn't get paid this week it will be sent to collections and all additional fees regarding collections will be your responsibility.
Again, I live 3.3 miles from your office. I'll be running some errands today and can stop by to pick up the check if you'd like. Let me know when would be a good time for you.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 11:11 AM Kieran Howarth <email@example.com> wrote:
Read the replies I've sent. I don't care what your invoice is based on, it's wrong. Your logic makes zero sense and I'm not paying for something that didn't happen.
You collected double the assigning fee than you would for a normal league game so if you feel so compelled to pay the refs, use that to pay them.
Change the invoice or don't get paid.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 11:03 AM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
Read the email I sent. The invoice is based on the league matches on the schedule that you had ample time to address on the schedule. That is the schedule that was used to assign the referees.
The invoice isn't changing.
On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:59 AM Kieran Howarth <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
This is the same invoice you sent in August. As I've requested a couple of occasions now, I need an updated invoice minus the 4x games that never occurred.
Please send that over and we'll pay immediately.
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 10:50 PM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 10:47 PM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
I received your message on the other thread. Here it is for everyone's reference:
We need an update invoice with the correct assigned games (minus the ones that didn't occur as we've already discussed). Once received, we can submit instant payment.
I think it's more important to respond on this thread. There are several problems with your responses. First, a piece of advice: Wait at least 24 hours to respond when you're not happy with a situation. Your responses were completely out of line. Don't ever tell me to "behave" again, don't criticize the referees I assign unless it's constructive and if you don't like how much they get paid then get that straightened out prior to having them come to the match for the league you elected to play in. I waited much longer to respond to your childish tirade because quite frankly the words I would have used 24 hours after you sent this would have been far harsher than what I'm about to tell you.
Whether the matches happened or not is irrelevant to me at this point. The matches were posted more than 10 days ahead of time and you had plenty of time to review the schedule, make changes and point out discrepancies for your club. The referees showed up to the match due to your ignorance and incompetence. They have to be paid and it's not coming out of my pocket.
Regarding your accusation that I added matches that were not played, I didn't add the match. The league set up the process for adding matches to the schedule. I assigned the referees. I did my part. The referees did their part. And as far as I'm concerned the league did their part in giving you plenty of time to respond to the schedule. It's all documented. If you have an issue with making the payment then you should speak to the other club or someone in your club who did not do their job.
Regarding your accusation that I'm double dipping with my assignor fees, I get paid more to assign tournament matches and even more to assign league matches than the $10 you've stated. The $10-12 that you pay your current assignor is strictly his fee to assign ARs. I understand your confusion on the matter, but you're incorrect.
I would suggest that you spend less time worrying about your $200-$300 mistake and more time educating your coaches on how not to approach a referee and how not to drop F bombs in front of young, impressionable girls on the touchline. Yes, your coach did this over the summer. And yes, I had to deal with calls from both the center and the AR to deal with it. Hopefully you've handled that situation better than this one because that was totally inappropriate.
You may also want to reconsider your stance regarding referees in the future given that everyone else on this thread either has been a referee, is currently a referee or has children that are referees. Our goal is to give the kids an opportunity to make some money doing something they love and also teach them how to be better people doing it. I suggest you try it some time.
I have attached your invoice again here for your convenience that was originally sent to you on August 26, 2020. Your invoice isn't going to change. I plan on sharing this thread with the referee community if you haven't personally dropped off a check by 6 pm October 22, 2020 to me. That's Friday evening. You have my address. I live 3.3 miles from your office at Players. It's very easy to find.
On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 8:21 AM Kieran Howarth <email@example.com> wrote:
I'm getting more annoyed about this the more I think about it.
You adding this game and saying it needs to be paid regardless would be like your kid playing for a club, the club adding an erroneous tournament expense to your account and saying 'sorry, it's on your account now and the tournament expects to be paid.' How would that go down with the family? It wouldn't because it's stupid.
I know you normally collect $10 per game for assigning in the regular season which you'd normally only get from the home team. You're collecting double the assigning fee for refs who generally don't have a clue what they're doing or show up late to a game and still expect to be paid in full. As you've worked out, I don't have any refs on my Christmas card list. We overpay for refs as a collective all year and there's zero chance I'm paying for games that didn't happen.
I'll adjust the invoice you sent and send the payment for the games we played. Bored of wasting any more time on this.
On Fri, Aug 28, 2020 at 8:03 AM Kieran Howarth <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
You said, the team name is not your concern. The fact those games were given to you and weren't played isn't my concern. Those games didn't happen, period. If they didn't occur then why would the referees still be expected to be paid for it? I again go back to the 03 Vapor....they participated in the Summer 'I' League at the Polo Fields and were at no point scheduled to play a game against Synergy, but I'm you want me to pay for it. Behave.
In truth, the last people on earth I'm going to feel sorry for are referees as what they get paid for a game sometimes eclipses what some coaches would get. It's ridiculous.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 4:24 PM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
Those are the matches that the referees are expecting to be paid for. Whether the team name was provided as "Evolution 03" or "Evolution FuBar" is not my concern. I put the matches in based on the schedule I was given by you. Please see below. If a team neglected to inform "the league" of a change, we still have to pay the refs. I'm not trying to be difficult and I'm happy to discuss ways that we can rectify any concerns, but I can't just remove a match from the schedule that referees are expecting to be paid for.
Kieran, the last thing I want to do is make you feel cheated or upset with me. Take a look at my other email I sent to all clubs and let me know what you think. I've looked at your website at sponsorship opportunities and I'd be happy to discuss that as well with you. We can work something out, but I have to pay these refs. If you want to set up a time for me to come into Players to chat, let's do that.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 2:48 PM Kieran Howarth <email@example.com> wrote:
I don't care where they came from. 4x are wrong, 1x (03 game) being part of a completely separate league that wasn't part of this with Wizards so obviously the system is inaccurate.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 2:15 PM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
These all came directly from the final referee assigning site.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 12:07 PM Kieran Howarth <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
Thanks for sending that.
I've gone through and confirmed all of the games from our end. There are 4x discrepancies from what you sent. Please could you take a look at those and revise the invoice?
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 3:33 PM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
Sorry about that. I thought I included it on the last email. Attached.
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 3:06 PM Kieran Howarth <email@example.com> wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
No problem on the $10 assigning. Just wanted clarification.
For the invoice, do you have it broken down by team/game for us to cross reference? I know if I don't ask now, our accountant would ask me to circle back anyway so she can reconcile each team's account.
Is that possible?
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 12:28 PM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
I hope all is well. I created a detailed file of the matches for Evolution based on the data used for the invoices. The invoice was generated based on the 57 matches attached. Per agreement with John the assigning fee was $10 per club for each match. home/visitor was irrelevant. It was all split 50/50.
Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 8:13 AM Kieran Howarth <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
Thanks for the invoice.
Do you have this info broken down by team/date?
Also, it looks like there is an assigning fee for every game vs just the home team. Just wanted to clarify that is correct too.
On Wed, Aug 26, 2020 at 1:24 AM Trey McClure <MidwestReferee@gmail.com> wrote:
Please find the summer invoice attached.